letstalkbeatles.com

I've seen them both and enjoyed them immensely. There's enough truth mixed into "Two of Us" to make it a very interesting what-if...

Across the Universe feels more like a fever dream to me, with images and songs poking my brain in a number of joyous places...

Beatles Biopics don't generally do much for me, I don't think there has been a great one. I liked Backbeat when it came out and I suspect it's still pretty good although I haven't revisited it.  A movie based on a week in their life in 1964 or making Revolver or Sgt Pepper could be good if well researched and an inspired production. But I'm not holding my breath.

However there are two Beatles related movies that I do think are very good: Across the Universe and Two of Us (This I have only just discovered and is available on youtube in 10 minutes sections.)
Across the Universe is inventive in costume , they have melded song and story really well and without mentioning the Beatles they show how their music is so intrinsic to the culture of the 60s, although interestingly primarily reflected in the US rather than the UK.

Two of Us is a fiction and imaginary meeting of John and Paul in 1976, interestingly Paul has said he likes this movie, the characters aren't strong look alikes, but the acting is good and it is basically a movie of a conversation in a single day and it is extremely well written, with really plausable characterisations of John and Paul. But it is essentially a conversation that while it didn't happen something like it should have. It makes it a really satisfying viewing for me.

So my questions have you seen these movies, what do you think of them? Are there other Bealtle related movies that you really like?

Here's Two of Us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOGgmsDbx-U&list=PLF51DABD4D28E207F

I enjoyed this video which makes the claim RAM is the first indie pop album, it's certainly an enjoyable appreciation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRZHvvYsc5w

the same guy interviews Denny Seiwell the drummer on RAM, and he makes some interesting comments about creating the album.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx4Lgf-nmKA

It is funny now that RAM received such a negative initial critical response and now is pretty widely revered, it doesn't have the kind of well crafterd classic songs that Paul created with the Beatles but it is such a well made and joyful album, for me it is always a top contender for the best McCartney album and with it he created something really new and individual.

I'm personally very dubious about the whole self referential thing, I have greater sympathy for Keats "Negative capability" where the self is forgotten and the imagination can invest itself in anything. Shakespeare is a great example of that, which is why no one can use Shakespeare's plays to get information on his life. And Lennon's work on Sgt Pepper is a great example of that Lucy was inspired by his sons painting Being for the Benefit of Mr Kite a Circus poster, A Day in the Life things from the newspaper Good Morning Good Morning a advertisement. From these he created songs that felt universal. Conversely the Ballad of John and Yoko could almost be a Newspaper article. I think John was better off when he didn't have a theory of art than when he had this idea that art was self referential. For that reason I'm wary of Lennon's own appraisal of a lot of his songs that he did in 1980.

John said in later interviews, from around 1968 and later, that all art is somehow self referential. It seems that around that time, he ceased trying to "create" things and began "reporting" them. Admittedly, a lot of his earlier work was indeed self referential, but it seemed to be more of an unconscious thing.

I'm a bit late coming to this discussion, but I like the idea of rediscovering old threads.

How do we take the term Avante Garde? Do we mean experimental? If so a lot of Beatles music was that, but usually it is interpreted as not following standard structures. In music it might be that it doesn't follow harmonic and melodic patterns. So Two Virgins was Avante Garde in that sense. Yoko did a lot of happenings events, so they were art theatre almost, rather than having aesthetic qualities.

John's music after meeting Yoko was I think less musically inventive than his music with the Beatles, even the jarring Plastic Ono Band seems musically more simplistic and even lyrically he became more straight forward and less poetic, the subject matter was more obvious and a lot of the time it was directly about John and his relationship with Yoko. Intense but not necessarily astute.

Apparently there are not many podcasts relating to John Lennon, but there is this one, it's kind of rambling but interesting. He thinks we can never really know the truth of him. I look at it in almost the opposite direction, that we all know John just to differing degrees.

I think paradoxically after all these years we may yet get a richer view of Lennon's life.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7aTD1NuEFBTQcQlOWR7iJQ

I watched a video on George's belief a little while ago and thought the topic was worth talking about, George has been described as preachy you can't really miss the fact that spirituality played a big part in his life and art. I thought it was worth talking about also personally i have a lot in common with George on this.

George grew up in a Catholic family, but it was his contact with Indian religion Vedanta/Hinduism that formed the basis of his spiritual beliefs.

Things with the Beatles seem to move very quickly, and in 1965 by which time the Beatles had world wide fame and fortune a number of key events happened. During the making of Help! George saw a sitar and became interested in it and a couple of weeks later bought a cheap one that was later used on Norwegian Wood. Friends told George about Ravi Shankar and George got a couple of albums of his and was fascinated. John and George took LSD and George says of an LSD experience, I don't know that it is the first one, that he heard the phrase "the Yogis of the Himalayas". I think George also read Aldous Huxley's The Doors of Perception around this time. George soon met Ravi and while Ravi is often seen as introducing George to Indian music which he did, it seems that he was also one of the most important people in George's spiritual life too, both in terms of playing music as a spiritual practice, requiring mindfulness and meditation but he also introduced him to various spiritual writings.

In 1966 after The Beatles had quit touring George became the first Beatle to go to India where he studied with Ravi Shankar and read spiritual books. This trip was significant for George an escape from his fame and a plunge into spirituality. One of the spiritual writers that George read was Swami Vivekananda who had come to the US in 1893 to attend the first World's Parliament of Religion in Chicago representing Hinduism. He created a sensation there where he stressed the brotherhood of Humanity and that the various religions were all different pathways to God. I'm also tickled that his Guru was Sri Ramakrishna who was a great devotee of the Goddess Kali who was of course featured in Help! Vivekanada Tat twam asi – That thou art “You are that which you seek. There is nothing to do but realise it.” "What right has a man to say that he has a soul if he does not feel it, or that there is God if he does not see him? If there is a God we must see him. If there is a soul we must perceive it. Otherwise it is better not to believe. It is better to be an outspoken atheist than a hypocrite.” from My Sweet Lord “I really want to see you Lord” God is to be experienced rather than believed in. He also discovered Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi, Yogananda like Vivekananda had gone to the US but Yoganananda spent much of his life there and his Autobiography is filled with wonders of saints and he also gives a great sense of intimacy with God. Yogananda is also a syncretist, seeing all religions being a variety of different pathways to the same God. It is Yogananda's lineage of gurus that George had appear on the cover of Sgt Pepper.

In 1967 all the Beatles visited the Maharishi, who I actually don't know that much about, but obviously he had a focus on Meditation and that led to the Beatles trip to Rishikesh India.

In 1969 George formed a relationship with the Hare Krishnas (ISKCON International Society for Krishna Consciousness) and in 1970 he produced an album of their chants and in 1972 he gifted them a temple in London. The Krishnas are probably one of the more dogmatic arms of Hinduism, but their focus is largely on devotion through chanting, we also know them through their food, vegetarian prasad (blessed food). To quote George “By chanting the name of the Lord and you'll be free”.

George's spirituality may have shifted sa little over the years but these elements remain, he had a respect for Indian Mythological stories, I think he believed that Krishna lived on earth around 5000 years ago and was an avatar an embodiment of God, I think he also accepted Jesus as a divine incarnation. He practiced meditation, chanting and a belief in God and the ability to experience God directly.

I feel that Giles Martin took the right approach just trying to give more clarity to what was there. I have to admit that I haven't heard Abbey Road as I never thought it needed a remix, but what he did for Sergeant Pepper was great. They must have plans for Rubber Soul and Revolver.
I liked the idea of trying to roll back the wall of sound a bit on ATMP, but this changed the album from one extreme to another, I have to acknowledge that some people liked it, although I find that weird, on the other hand there are a lot of people that think it as bad as I do, so I'm not alone.

Thanks for listening, I too thought it was an interesting idiosyncratic mix of songs, I think the premise of the show of avoiding the hits can work really well for McCartney as he has such a large catalogue and it's well worth a tour of it.